Wednesday, November 13, 2013
Oh PLCB - you got some splainin' to do!
Just like Ricky did with Lucy we Pennsylvanians wonder what the PLCB is doing some if not most of the time. We hear from the PLCB and the unions that our prices in state are so great but that over $300 million a year is lost in border bleed. Which makes one wonder if we have such good prices why isn't there a positive cash flow into the state instead of a negative cash flow out of the state? Maybe convenience, selection and service are the deciding factors not price.
Speaking of going out of state to buy liquor we have all heard how Washingtonians are going to Oregon border stores in greater number since privatization to take advantage of cheaper prices. That is saying something when Oregon has the 2nd highest liquor taxes in the country but would Pennsylvanians also shop in Oregon if they had the chance? According to the Tax Foundation their liquor taxes are 315% of ours. They are also a control state which means limited hours, selection in store and convenience just like here.
This story from KNDO NBC 23 out of Yakima, WA shows the inside of an Oregon liquor store and at about 1:15 in the clip you can see some prices of what they have. The signage says these are everyday prices not sale items. I've done a comparison of those prices to PA prices to see how much less expensive we are since our tax rate is so much lower. This is what I found.
Seagram's Gin 1.75L PA $21.99 - OR $18.39 (PA 23% higher)
Seagram's Vodka 1.75 PA $21.99 - OR $17.39 (PA 27% higher)
Kahlua 1.75 PA $42.99 - OR $32.39 (PA 30% higher)
Wolfschmidt Vodka 1.75L PA $14.99 - OR $14.39 (PA 10.7% higher)
Baileys 750ml PA $25.49 - OR $21.99 (PA 21% higher)
Pinnacle Vodka 1.75L $23.99 - OR $21.99 (PA 14% higher)
Smirnoff Vodka 1.75L PA $25.99 - OR $19.99 (PA 29% higher)
Now I know what you are thinking. Al, your numbers don't work out. Well - they do. Oregon doesn't charge sales tax so PA prices are an additional 6% higher then just what the listed price differences would indicate. So how does this state government controlled wholesale operation with 3 times the taxes sell for less? As the header says, "PLCB - you got some splainin' to do!"
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33 comments:
I don't mind paying a small slice more knowing the workers are treated fairly and given a decent standard of living. That's why I don't shop at wal-mart.
Nice to have a choice not to shop at walmart, we don't have any choice with the state monopoly, where at least a third of the employees are part time and don't make enough to live on, and none have a motivation for customer service. No competition, no motivation, no selection, no choice.
If 20% or more is a small slice to you I guess you don't have to shop anywhere, you just send the help out to do it for you.
Is that 20 percent across the board, Albert? I find that hard to believe, even your blog examples don't match that claim.
I'm sorry its just comical how far you guys will go with this in defending wage disparity that somehow wal-mart is a better place to earn a living. Geez..
Do you really wanna go there and compare the facts?
It would help if you actually read the post. I said that the numbers don't match what is indicated because I included the sales tax that Oregon doesn't collect. If you had read the post you would see that there are things that aren't 20% or more different which makes your question a bit redundant. Is there anything else you need explained?
What is funny is how you think Wal-Mart has anything to do with the price that a state licensed liquor store sells things at. There is no liquor in Wal-Mart in Oregon. Got any more strawmen you want to obfuscate things with?
Can you give prices for Pennsylvania's surrounding states on these particular items? I think that would give a better regional perspective for our residents.
Is the 20 percent savings in Oregon on ALL items in the store or just the handful you saw on tv?
Is that enough to scientifically make your claim?
And can you say specifically (I've heard plenty of generalizations from Lew) SPECIFICALLY where is this "extra" cash going?
Oh and please do compare it to corporate CEO salaries, we like that.
These questions - and the way you ask them - show once more that you're mistaking the purpose of this blog. That is to POSE questions, to stir debate. Not obfuscate the issues with pointless details.
My bad, judging from blogger responses over the years I assumed snarky responses were the norm.
I'd be interested in learning more about your facts. DETAILS DO MATTER.
Details that serve to obscure the issues, rather than illuminate them, only matter to those who want to sidetrack discussion into pointless mazes. Al laid out facts. If you're truly interested in learning more... There's this amazing thing called Google.
Yes I can give prices on those items in surrounding states as easy as you can look them up. Like your other anonymous brother you not only failed to read and understand the post but didn't read the other comments where your would have found the answer to at least one of your questions.
I made no claim about where the money is going but, like you, I did ask. It seems a reasonable question to ask since their tax rate is so much higher than PA .
The facts of this particular thread can be found in the video and on the PLCB website, it isn't like I made them up you can look for yourself. Maybe you have better eyes and can catch even more prices shown and compare them to PA.
You can avoid the question of comparing surrounding states, you can avoid the question of were specifically the"extra" money is going, you can avoid the total 20 percent question, but how specifically does the eight examples given represent the whole? And logically can you explain any disparities in pricing?
My hope is you don't avoid all these questions with snarky rhetorical responses.
Since you don't seem to believe what I have listed already I don't know why I should give you more to ignore when you can find the information as easily as I. This thread isn't about the surrounding states but about Oregon.
I have answered the 20% question - twice. I'll leave it up to you to struggle your way through the post and replies. When you are done you'll see I made no claim whatsoever about where the money is going, that is one of the questions asked or implied in the thread. If I knew I probably would have posted it since it pertains to the subject at hand.
Probability theory tells us that the odds of having 8 items in a row be the same as part of a random selection is 1 in 128. The same in this case being less expensive. Does it hold up across enough samples to give 95% confidence I can't say since the video didn't provide that many samples.
At least it did get you thinking and my hope is you'll delve into more and at some point be able answer your own questions.
http://www.blueoregon.com/2013/09/privatize-liquor-oregon-why-would-we-be-foolish/
Here's an interesting article comparing Washington state who recently privatized and Oregon who continues a state run operation.
And if you read that piece, I'd urge you to also read the comments.
I read that when it first came out. The OLCC works so well that they want to change it. What does that tell you?
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/11/olcc_workgroup_says_oregon_liq.html
Holy Smokes! We have comments! Hold on a minute. Let down going on downtown. Disappointment. Same, old, withered like a...., thought you mite...
The comments on the Oregon article prove one thing. The boozers there are no different than the boozers here. I wonder if their are two or three that comment on every article they can find like they do in Pa? Must be a sad life always defending your master. Stockholm syndrome?
Yeah, those chronic alcohol users...as the PLCB clerks call anyone who buys more than a bottle a month.
I'll ask Wendell for you next time I see him.
As an update, Oregon contributed $115 million (noon-tax) to the state general fund while PA did $111 million so we know that they are collecting the higher taxes. It works out fairly even since Oregon has about 32% of our population and taxes at 315% of our rate. However, that still doesn't explain how those 8 random items were all lower in price.
From someone that is not a fan of the lack of selection and quantity discounts of the PLCB and the general poor service, I would argue that this is certainly cherry picking. For example, I got a bottle George T. Stagg and Eagle Rare 17 recently on the PLCB's website. The price? $59.99. Try finding these anywhere in the country at that price. In fact, try finding these anywhere period. Even more, I don't need to be buddies with the store owner to get these. The PLCB does have some advantages, which are unfairly ignored by this site.
Rather than going into the PLCB's bizarre approach to allocation buying, I'll just point out that this is hardly cherry picking. Albert saw these selections and prices on an Oregon television station story; he compared them to PA prices. That's not cherry picking, it's random.
You are more than welcome to look at the video and cherry pick any price you see to compare to PA. Let me know what you come up with.
Lew your Blog has really gone down hill over the last few months. I use to enjoy your fight now it's just kind of lame and sad with you complaining about prices.
Your complaints have been noted and appropriately filed. Thanks for your input.
If you were paying attention for the last few months you'd notice that Lew isn't writing the blog anymore. Since that may be too much to ask I'll point out that this thread isn't about prices per se but about where the difference in taxes is going - something we can't explain hence the title.
Google Oregon liquor prices for a complete list. You will find some items higher than Pa, some lower.
That's nice. Suggest you read Albert's comment directly above yours; this isn't about direct price comparison, it's about taxes, overhead, and management.
It does raise the question that with 315% of our excise tax rate how ANY prices are lower in Oregon, a state controlled monopoly that sets the prices.
Either Seagrams Gin went up $8.00 bucks in Oregon or you have old file footage. Just picked my favorite Captain in the plastic bottle in Pa. With the in store coupon it came to like $23.00 with tax. Oregon price is closer to $45.00.
I guess if you're going to reply 10 months later and say the prices are different I can be a few months late too. The retail price of a handle of Captain Morgan in Oregon is $34.95 - it says so on their website. In PA it is $30.99. However, Craptain Morgan wasn't one of the eight items shown in the video and with a tax rate 315% higher one would expect Oregon to be priced more which was the point of the story to begin with.
Have you figured out this was just old file footage yet?
You never did watch it did you?
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